[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":622},["ShallowReactive",2],{"project-30103906":3},{"id":4,"name":5,"line":6,"line_source":7,"title":8,"url":9,"domain":10,"maker":11,"posted_at":12,"year":13,"points":14,"comments":15,"rank_in_year":16,"shown_in_year":17,"top":18,"tier":19,"category":20,"subcategory":21,"format":22,"keywords":23,"reception":28,"sentiment":29,"stance_mix":30,"scored_comments":35,"aspects":36,"strip":46,"post_text":50,"what":51,"said":98,"maker_in_thread":204,"shape":215,"grid":220,"attempts":585,"same_week":586,"maker_shows":48,"maker_hidden":614,"reader_version":615,"card":616},"30103906","Hibiki HTML","New frontend framework – no scaffolding, no Webpack","title","Show HN: Hibiki HTML – New frontend framework – no scaffolding, no Webpack","https:\u002F\u002Fplayground.hibikihtml.com\u002Ftutorial\u002F","playground.hibikihtml.com","sawka",1643306982,2022,232,139,219,2570,9,"notable","languages","frontend framework","library",[21,24,25,26,27],"no build step","html templates","ajax","internal tools","roasted",-0.401,{"positive":31,"neutral":32,"mixed":33,"critical":34},6,15,0,30,51,{"pricing":37,"idea":39,"execution":42,"design":43,"docs":44,"performance":45},{"positive":38,"critical":31},1,{"positive":40,"critical":41},5,12,{"positive":33,"critical":38},{"positive":33,"critical":38},{"positive":33,"critical":33},{"positive":33,"critical":38},[38,38,38,33,33,33,33,33,33,33,47,38,38,38,38,47,33,33,48,38,40,38,38,40,38,38,47,48,38,33,38,38,38,49,47,38,47,47,47,38],3,2,4,"Source https:\u002F\u002Fgithub.com\u002Fdashborg\u002Fhibiki | Interactive Tutorial https:\u002F\u002Fplayground.hibikihtml.com\u002Ftutorial\u002F\n\nI love JavaScript, but for many projects -- especially internal tools and prototypes -- setting up a full frontend JavaScript stack (npm, webpack, babel, create-react-app, redux) and all of their configuration files, folders, and scaffolding is overkill.\n\nHibiki HTML incrementally plugs into any backend, using any template language (even static HTML files) with a single script include.  It includes a built-in frontend data model, Vue.js-like rendering, built-in AJAX integration, and a ",{"problem":52,"audience":58,"pricing":65,"motivation":74,"time_to_build":81,"stack":82,"openness":95,"stage":96,"team_size":97},{"value":53,"source":54,"evidence":55},"Full JavaScript frontend stacks require heavy scaffolding and configuration for internal tools and prototypes","maker",[56],{"id":57},"post",{"value":59,"source":54,"evidence":60},"Backend, devops and data engineers who are not JavaScript experts",[61,62],{"id":57},{"id":63,"by":11,"text":64},"30112452","Hibiki is built for the backend\u002Fdevops\u002Fdata engineer, who knows say, Python, flask, and HTML, but isn't a JavaScript expert, and isn't a frontend framework expert. Using Hibiki…",{"value":66,"source":54,"evidence":67},"Free for internal tools; license restricts offering hosted services letting customers write Hibiki code",[68,71],{"id":69,"by":11,"text":70},"30108885","Well, I'm obviously not a lawyer, but that definitely was not my intent when I said offer \"hosted version of Hibiki HTML\" :\u002F . I meant hosted, like offering a service like…",{"id":72,"by":11,"text":73},"30108977","Okay, I'll definitely consider that -- didn't mean to be misleading. I really intended that the license should not be encumbering for 99% of use cases. I'm actually happy if SaaS…",{"value":75,"source":54,"evidence":76},"Maker's team needed to let non-JS engineers build frontend tools quickly",[77,80],{"id":78,"by":11,"text":79},"30110139","It all goes back to the release of Gmail in 2004. It changed the web forever. Since then if your frontend isn't \"dynamic\" or AJAX-y, it feels \"old\" or only for engineers. Hibiki…",{"id":57},null,[83,89],{"value":84,"source":54,"evidence":85},"JavaScript",[86],{"id":87,"by":11,"text":88},"30108681","One of the best parts of Hibiki is how you can encapsulate functionality easily into libraries (even 3rd party JS like D3). Even if the library requires JavaScript to create,…",{"value":90,"source":54,"evidence":91},"React",[92],{"id":93,"by":11,"text":94},"30109787","Yup, had to solve a lot of issues around corner cases like these. So Hibiki HTML is built on top of React, so react \u002F virtual DOM handles all of the DOM repaints and synthetic…","open_source","launched","unknown",{"praise":99,"objections":112,"requests":146,"questions":166,"alternatives":181},[100],{"value":101,"source":102,"evidence":103},"Interesting idea for avoiding JavaScript tooling","commenter",[104,108],{"id":105,"by":106,"text":107},"30107708","rezonant","What's old is new again-- this very much resembles Angular.js (ie Angular 1)'s strategy (not to say this isn't a valid approach given the constraints). Any notable differences…",{"id":109,"by":110,"text":111},"30112425","shafyy","Looks great! Reminds me a bit of Stimulus (https:\u002F\u002Fstimulus.hotwired.dev\u002Fhandbook\u002Fintroduction) in terms of philosophy and motivation, which I love using.",[113,128,139],{"value":114,"source":102,"evidence":115},"Custom non-OSI license is a dealbreaker for many users",[116,120,124],{"id":117,"by":118,"text":119},"30108613","notRobot","I really, really want to use this -- but I urge you to put under a regular MIT or (A)GPL license. Something that's proper F\u002FOSS, please! As it stands, I can't incorporate Hibiki…",{"id":121,"by":122,"text":123},"30108296","rubyist5eva","The \"modified MIT\" license is a dealbreaker.",{"id":125,"by":126,"text":127},"30107832","SahAssar","> It is licensed under a modified form of the MIT license (similar in spirit to the Confluent open source license) which allows you to use Hibiki HTML without restrictions for…",{"value":129,"source":102,"evidence":130},"License restriction on customizable products is vague",[131,135],{"id":132,"by":133,"text":134},"30109072","henning","> You may not use this Software to make any product (commercial, free, or open-source), software-as-a-service (SaaS), platform-as-a-service (PaaS), or infrastructure-as-a-service…",{"id":136,"by":137,"text":138},"30107822","lf-non","The Open-Source-ish license is a bit of danger zone. > You just can't create a SaaS service offering a hosted version of Hibiki HTML or one that uses the Hibiki HTML language to…",{"value":140,"source":102,"evidence":141},"Tutorial page is blank without JavaScript despite no-JS claim",[142],{"id":143,"by":144,"text":145},"30109985","lunch","> Hibiki [..] lets you create [..] frontend applications without JavaScript Yet the website is a blank white page, without JavaScript.",[147,155],{"value":148,"source":102,"evidence":149},"Switch to a standard open-source license such as MIT or AGPL",[150,151],{"id":117,"by":118,"text":119},{"id":152,"by":153,"text":154},"30110616","chrismorgan","On licensing: I recommend taking a look at the PolyForm Project’s form licenses: https:\u002F\u002Fpolyformproject.org\u002Flicenses\u002F. PolyForm Shield…",{"value":156,"source":102,"evidence":157},"Support standard web components and plain JS\u002FHTML",[158,162],{"id":159,"by":160,"text":161},"30114397","difosfor","Have you considered basing your work on standard web components? They also don't require any scaffolding or building to be used. Sprinkle some binding sugar on top using Lit and…",{"id":163,"by":164,"text":165},"30112192","tigrezno","No, don't follow the VUE path, don't add your own invented format. Let us just write standard js\u002Fhtml.",[167,174],{"value":168,"source":102,"evidence":169},"How does it compare to htmx",[170],{"id":171,"by":172,"text":173},"30108158","harryvederci","Sounds similar to htmx[0], which I like! I wonder if someone has worked with both htmx and Hibiki, and can compare the two experiences? [0] https:\u002F\u002Fhtmx.org",{"value":175,"source":102,"evidence":176},"What does it provide over plain HTML and JS",[177],{"id":178,"by":179,"text":180},"30112232","the__alchemist","I read the intro page and skimmed the rest of the tutorial, and am left this this: What does this provide over HTML\u002FJS?",[182,189,193,200],{"value":183,"source":102,"evidence":184},"htmx",[185,186],{"id":171,"by":172,"text":173},{"id":187,"by":11,"text":188},"30108300","htmx is really cool, but definitely different. Hibiki is a lot heavier and so it is more appropriate for internal tools, prototypes, dashboards, etc. as opposed to fast\u002Fquick…",{"value":190,"source":102,"evidence":191},"Angular.js",[192],{"id":105,"by":106,"text":107},{"value":194,"source":102,"evidence":195},"Svelte",[196],{"id":197,"by":198,"text":199},"30108377","turtlebits","IME, scaffolding\u002Fconfig is overkill only if it complicates the developer experience. I stayed away from Angular, React, Vue, etc. because there were too many ways to scaffold and…",{"value":201,"source":102,"evidence":202},"Stimulus",[203],{"id":109,"by":110,"text":111},{"comments":205,"answered":206,"key":207},32,16,[208,211,214],{"id":209,"text":210},"30108771","wow good catch, thanks, just fixed it! Is your concern more ideologically or are you worried about actually getting in trouble for using it? happy to assuage your fears if it is…",{"id":212,"text":213},"30108922","Fair enough. I realize the AGPL integration is a deal breaker. For point 3, true, which is why I could offer a proprietary license that does say you'd be 100% okay (although it…",{"id":72,"text":73},{"commenters":216,"max_depth":217,"maker_replies":205,"first_comment_mins":218,"lifespan_hours":219},77,8,249,107,[221,223,225,227,228,230,234,237,238,241,244,245,247,250,253,257,259,261,264,266,269,272,274,276,278,280,283,286,289,292,295,298,300,304,307,308,311,314,316,320,323,326,329,333,335,338,340,342,344,348,350,354,357,360,365,367,370,372,373,374,377,381,384,386,390,392,394,396,399,401,404,406,408,411,413,415,418,421,424,427,429,431,433,436,438,440,445,446,449,451,453,456,458,461,464,466,470,473,475,477,480,482,484,487,489,491,493,496,498,501,503,506,508,510,513,515,517,519,521,525,527,531,533,535,538,542,544,545,548,550,553,557,560,564,566,571,575,578,581],[117,33,38,222,118,33],"project\u002Fcritical\u002Fpricing",[209,33,33,224,11,38],"maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fpricing",[226,33,38,222,118,33],"30108820",[212,33,33,224,11,38],[229,33,38,222,118,33],"30108955",[231,33,33,232,233,33],"30114062","commenter\u002Fneutral\u002Fpricing","learc83",[235,33,38,222,236,33],"30108918","dec0dedab0de",[72,33,33,224,11,38],[239,33,38,222,240,33],"30109026","andybak",[242,33,33,232,243,33],"30113804","rglullis",[69,33,33,224,11,38],[246,33,33,232,118,33],"30108938",[248,33,33,232,249,33],"30114841","solarkraft",[251,33,33,232,252,33],"30109042","Ycros",[254,33,33,255,256,33],"30109897","other\u002Fneutral\u002Fpricing","graderjs",[258,33,33,232,118,33],"30111354",[260,33,33,232,256,33],"30158905",[262,33,33,255,263,33],"30109330","zmmmmm",[265,33,33,224,11,38],"30109684",[267,33,33,232,268,33],"30109494","franciscop",[270,33,33,232,271,33],"30109685","Uehreka",[273,33,33,232,268,33],"30110751",[275,33,33,232,271,33],"30111465",[277,33,33,232,268,33],"30111546",[279,33,33,232,243,33],"30113793",[281,33,33,232,282,33],"30111743","sangnoir",[284,33,33,232,285,33],"30115094","yellowapple",[287,33,33,232,288,33],"30110631","ipaddr",[290,33,33,232,291,33],"30110036","jancsika",[293,33,33,255,294,33],"30111715","caterama",[296,33,33,232,297,33],"30113169","dspillett",[87,38,33,299,11,38],"project\u002Fpositive\u002Fidea",[301,38,33,302,303,33],"30110871","commenter\u002Fcritical\u002Fidea","sverhagen",[305,38,33,306,11,38],"30111489","maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fidea",[152,48,47,224,153,33],[309,48,33,310,11,38],"30110699","maker\u002Fpositive\u002Fpricing",[312,48,33,232,313,33],"30113119","ninjin",[315,48,33,232,153,33],"30114425",[317,47,38,318,319,33],"30109941","project\u002Fcritical\u002Fidea","delgaudm",[321,47,38,318,322,33],"30110342","clownworldclown",[324,47,38,318,325,33],"30113093","boffinism",[327,47,38,318,328,33],"30113548","idop",[330,47,33,331,332,33],"30113940","commenter\u002Fneutral\u002Fidea","dkjaudyeqooe",[334,47,33,331,328,33],"30114327",[336,47,38,318,337,33],"30125247","blacklion",[339,47,38,318,337,33],"30125261",[171,49,33,341,172,33],"other\u002Fneutral\u002Fnone",[187,49,33,343,11,38],"project\u002Fneutral\u002Fidea",[345,49,47,346,347,33],"30109713","project\u002Fneutral\u002Fexecution","lhorie",[93,49,33,349,11,38],"maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fexecution",[351,40,38,352,353,33],"30109562","project\u002Fcritical\u002Fdesign","beders",[355,40,33,356,11,38],"30109853","maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fdesign",[358,31,47,224,359,33],"30108587","otikik",[361,362,33,363,364,33],"30108952",7,"other\u002Fneutral\u002Fidea","VWWHFSfQ",[366,362,33,306,11,38],"30109018",[368,362,33,363,369,33],"30109270","svachalek",[371,362,33,341,364,33],"30109781",[78,362,33,306,11,38],[197,217,33,363,198,33],[375,217,33,341,376,33],"30108746","lyncro",[378,217,33,379,380,33],"30109012","commenter\u002Fneutral\u002Fnone","PetahNZ",[382,217,33,379,383,33],"30111460","onion2k",[143,18,38,385,144,33],"project\u002Fcritical\u002Fexecution",[387,388,47,343,389,33],"30108435",10,"conradfr",[105,391,47,343,106,33],11,[393,391,33,343,11,38],"30107804",[395,391,38,318,137,33],"30107837",[397,391,33,341,398,33],"30107864","Waterluvian",[400,391,33,343,11,38],"30108066",[402,391,40,299,403,33],"30108348","stavros",[405,391,33,343,11,38],"30108449",[407,391,33,379,106,33],"30107865",[409,391,33,379,410,33],"30107871","pjgalbraith",[412,391,33,343,11,38],"30108012",[414,391,38,318,179,33],"30112264",[416,391,33,417,11,38],"30112563","project\u002Fneutral\u002Fdesign",[419,391,33,379,420,33],"30108568","mythz",[422,391,38,318,423,33],"30115989","shrew",[425,391,47,343,426,33],"30108597","rexreed",[428,391,33,341,288,33],"30110720",[430,391,33,341,423,33],"30116180",[432,391,33,341,288,33],"30119777",[434,41,40,299,435,33],"30110108","dpweb",[159,437,47,343,160,33],13,[439,437,33,341,11,38],"30118260",[441,442,38,443,444,33],"30110334",14,"project\u002Fcritical\u002Fnone","pmarreck",[121,32,38,443,122,33],[447,32,33,379,448,33],"30108777","dark-star",[450,32,33,379,118,33],"30109140",[452,32,38,443,122,33],"30110528",[454,206,40,299,455,33],"30110143","ehsankia",[132,457,38,443,133,33],17,[459,457,33,460,11,38],"30109093","project\u002Fneutral\u002Fnone",[462,457,47,460,463,33],"30109251","KaoruAoiShiho",[465,457,33,460,11,38],"30109536",[467,457,47,468,469,33],"30110584","maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fnone","electroly",[471,457,38,443,472,33],"30109773","catlifeonmars",[474,457,33,460,11,38],"30110347",[163,476,38,318,164,33],18,[478,476,33,341,479,33],"30113924","Zababa",[481,476,33,341,164,33],"30125017",[483,476,33,379,479,33],"30125578",[485,476,33,379,486,33],"30114741","rk06",[488,476,33,341,164,33],"30125019",[125,490,38,443,126,33],19,[492,490,33,460,11,38],"30108179",[494,490,38,443,495,33],"30108334","netr0ute",[497,490,33,460,11,38],"30108414",[499,490,38,443,500,33],"30108512","jabbany",[502,490,33,460,11,38],"30108718",[504,490,33,379,505,33],"30110626","leonidasv",[507,490,33,379,11,38],"30110903",[509,490,33,341,495,33],"30108589",[511,490,38,443,512,33],"30108475","naniwaduni",[514,490,47,460,479,33],"30113947",[109,516,40,299,110,33],20,[518,516,33,343,11,38],"30112485",[520,516,47,460,110,33],"30129550",[522,516,33,523,524,33],"30113815","other\u002Fneutral\u002Fdocs","akpa1",[526,516,33,341,110,33],"30129561",[528,529,47,343,530,33],"30112783",21,"sgdesign",[136,532,38,222,137,33],22,[534,532,33,224,11,38],"30107896",[536,532,33,232,537,33],"30109441","kyleee",[539,540,47,343,541,33],"30117244",23,"kseistrup",[178,543,47,343,179,33],24,[63,543,33,306,11,38],[546,543,47,547,179,33],"30112519","project\u002Fneutral\u002Fdocs",[549,543,33,306,11,38],"30112615",[551,543,40,552,179,33],"30113229","maker\u002Fpositive\u002Fidea",[554,555,38,556,398,33],"30107845",25,"project\u002Fcritical\u002Fperformance",[558,555,33,559,11,38],"30107918","maker\u002Fneutral\u002Fperformance",[561,562,38,318,563,33],"30109812",26,"jozzy-james",[565,562,33,552,11,38],"30110225",[567,568,40,569,570,33],"30110527",27,"project\u002Fpositive\u002Fpricing","sergiotapia",[572,573,33,341,574,33],"30108514",28,"ramesh31",[576,573,33,341,577,33],"30108849","recursive",[579,573,33,341,580,33],"30108878","daok",[582,583,38,318,584,33],"30108798",29,"phpisatrash",[],[587,592,597,601,605,609],{"id":588,"name":589,"points":590,"category":591},"30137984","fahrrad-tools.de",631,"dev_tools",{"id":593,"name":594,"points":595,"category":596},"30149370","Magistrate",279,"web_saas",{"id":598,"name":599,"points":600,"category":20},"30152714","High-order 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